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Dec. 11th, 2009

Meh. I finally caught Charlie and the Chocolate Factory on TV, but I liked the Oompa Loompas in the Futurama parody better. And kind of keep waiting for the equivalent of the Slurm queen, which I guess won't happen? *sigh* This is what you get from being exposed to pop culture references before the original.

~

Also, Cyberwoman—funny, yes, no, maybe a bit? Personally speaking, this is one of two S1 episodes that still manage to almost shock me every time with the level of raw emotion and actually going this far. (The other is OoT with John's suicide and Jack helping him to go through with it and then sitting in the fume-filled car beside a dead body until morning.) So, no, metal bikini and pterodactyl notwithstanding, 'howling with laughter' is not actually a reaction that I had, ever, or could imagine having, but apparently milage varies. Is this me being weird and depressed and too srs bzns as usual? Because generally speaking, I do have a sense of humour, and being from Vienna it tends to be rather dark and macabre, but... just, no. This is not an episode I'll ever find lol-worthy.

Also, note to self - see two entries below. These discussions are pointless. Let. It. Go. *kicks self*

Comments

( 19 comments — Leave a comment )
rm
Dec. 11th, 2009 09:45 pm (UTC)
Cyberwoman is such a weird episode. And the one that indicates to me that CoE is a logical extension of even the earliest vision of Torchwood.

OoT, meanwhile, I think that stuff with Jack and John, is some of the finest subtlety the show ever gives us (which also comes back to us in part of CoE, because Euros Lyn knows how to direct some actors who are very hard to direct).
solitary_summer
Dec. 11th, 2009 10:08 pm (UTC)
CW is a bit of an odd mixture, but IMO the tragedy far outweighs the 'crack' elements, and once you see Ianto's revulsion at how Dr. Tanizaki initially treats Lisa, I find it impossible to even mentally mock the over-sexualised metal bikini any longer, because it's painfully clear from the beginning what she means to him.

And the one that indicates to me that CoE is a logical extension of even the earliest vision of Torchwood.

That's how I see it, but clearly many people disagree widely, so half of the time I feel like I'm the weird one, but then I look at canon again, and I do think I'm right after all. It's a rather strange situation...

Edited at 2009-12-11 10:09 pm (UTC)
rm
Dec. 11th, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
Oh man, I so so so so so hear you.

TW is not a perfect show by any measure, but I can see the logical threads of its construction, even when I think it doesn't necessarily hold together or achieve what I presume was the desired effect.
elisi
Dec. 11th, 2009 10:14 pm (UTC)
metal bikini and pterodactyl notwithstanding, 'howling with laughter' is not actually a reaction that I had, ever, or could imagine having
Not me either. I found some parts *bizarre*, but not in a funny way.

(Cyberwoman is the episode where I've made a pretty much 180 degree turn of opinion. I was furious with the writers after first seeing it, because I thought they'd *ruined* Ianto - which goes to show that even then, barely knowing him, he was definitely my favourite. But then came the stopwatch scene and things looked up... *g*)
solitary_summer
Dec. 11th, 2009 10:41 pm (UTC)
Confession time! :) It might be because I was watching S1 on DVD the first time and didn't give myself much time to reflect between the episodes, but CW actually sparked my interest in Ianto as well as Jack/Ianto. I can't really say I noticed him a lot before that, but this episode, the confrontations with Jack... whoa. Or again Ianto's story in Fragments; I'll have to admit I love this kind of mixture between slightly fucked up and total loyalty, and they always reminded me a bit of Angel and Wesley, which I guess helped. ;)
elisi
Dec. 11th, 2009 10:50 pm (UTC)
Or again Ianto's story in Fragments
That... that is one of those things that outweighed ANY fic I'd ever, ever read! (And I'd read a lot! *g*) I could KISS the writers for that one. (Partly, because it explains all the oddities in Cybewoman so elegantly. Showing, not telling, all the way.)

they always reminded me a bit of Angel and Wesley, which I guess helped.
Huh. I can sort of see that, although I think they're more like Buffy and Spike. (When looked at from a certain angle. It's all it's own tangle of lies and deceit and attraction and loyalty and I love it entirely too much. Jack/Ianto could have been written *specifically* for me...)
solitary_summer
Dec. 11th, 2009 11:10 pm (UTC)
I'm still wondering if they (writers, actors) already had a backstory like that in mind when they wrote/filmed CW (*), because if not, it's a really brilliant, and, like you said, elegant, retcon. It didn't change the facts, but it subtly altered and explained the whole dynamic of the relationship.

(*) Why does no one ever ask these questions at conventions?
elisi
Dec. 11th, 2009 11:12 pm (UTC)
Why does no one ever ask these questions at conventions?
I don't know! I wish they would...
yehnica
Dec. 12th, 2009 01:06 am (UTC)
Laughter and tragedy come together very easily for me. I wouldn't say I was howling with laughter but I was definitely smiling for a lot of the episode, and at the same time thinking ohhh this hurts, in a good way. Especially the confrontations between Jack and Ianto, I remember smiling through those but not in a 'haha funny' way - more in a 'brilliant, more of that please' way. What can I say, I like conflict.

It's one of my favourite episodes, btw.
solitary_summer
Dec. 12th, 2009 08:21 am (UTC)
Laughter and tragedy come together very easily for me.

For me too, generally speaking, but for some reason CW is one of these episodes that are bit too... emotional, too raw; I'd almost say hit too close, except that isn't true, because I've never been in a situation that's even remotely comparable. Hard to put my finger on it. But I completely agree, I love the conflict, it's what made the Jack/Ianto relationship interesting to me in the first place.
alba17
Dec. 12th, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)
I found Cyberwoman harrowing. I could see how some people might find the silver bikini and the pterodactyl fight funny (and the Gwen/Owen kiss), but the emotions are so raw and powerful throughout. Unfortunately, I think Barrowman overacted a bit and I kind of cringe at those moments.
solitary_summer
Dec. 12th, 2009 08:47 am (UTC)
but the emotions are so raw and powerful throughout.

*nods* The episode is a bit of an odd mixture, but for me the tragedy by far outweighs the metal bikini, etc..

I don't have a problem with JB's acting in CW, because I find Jack's rage essentially believable, and to me Jack's reaction, the fact that Ianto could make him lose it so completely, implied long before Fragments that there was already a bit more going on between them on an emotional level than canon let on at the time. OTOH, I always cringe pretty hard at Jack's resurrection glove scenes. :)
venusinchains
Dec. 12th, 2009 01:47 am (UTC)
I'm sorry I have a sense of humor about one of my favorite things. It's something that developed over time. I actually built up to the 'howling,' but the good reasons for it were always there, always made me smile. Mileage does vary. For me, it even depends on the day. (Do you really not know this?)

So, yes, if you feel the only acceptable end to the discussion is having someone else validate your point of view, maybe you should 'let it go.' I don't think I was otherwise so very rude or inconsiderate.
solitary_summer
Dec. 12th, 2009 08:07 am (UTC)
No, don't apologise, it's a perfectly valid POV, it's just one that I'm very far from sharing, and it's been my experience that with that much of a difference of opinion and perception discussions mostly are a bit pointless, because there isn't enough common ground for a debate that isn't just both sides reiterating their point of view over and over again without either changing the other's opinion in the slightest. Especially when it comes to post CoE-TW. Been there, done that, and should have learned the lesson months ago. People who hate it don't want to hear that it didn't suck for others, and to be perfectly honest, I don't necessarily want to hear more than I already had to what a horrible, badly written, OOC thing it is, because for me it never was that.
(Deleted comment)
solitary_summer
Dec. 13th, 2009 07:52 pm (UTC)
But it was still the episode that made me sit up and go "oh! this is going to be something different from anything I've seen on TV before."

Oh, definitely. Me, too.


I know this makes me a bit of an odd person especially in fandom, but I don't really identify with characters and they're rarely the main reason I'm into a show. What tends to draw me in is the story and the ideas and concepts behind it. I guess what also helped me in the long run was that in the back of my mind I've always compared TW to AtS, and CoE at least didn't deconstruct the characters as much as JW did there in S5. (I know there's a comic and they all survived/came back in some way, but I haven't read it yet, and it's not really canon in my mind...)
(Deleted comment)
solitary_summer
Dec. 14th, 2009 09:38 pm (UTC)
Oops, sorry. AtS = Angel: The Series (The Buffy spin off.)
(Deleted comment)
( 19 comments — Leave a comment )

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