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Jul. 28th, 2007

On a less whiney & self-pitying note...

How exactly was Voldemort's fall to happen, according to Dumbledore's plans?

Dumbledore wanted Snape to end up with the Elder Wand:

- for him to use it against Voldemort, or merely to make sure that no one else became its master? (In either case that'd be another huge sign of trust, considering the thing's bloody history and power of temptation.)

- Was Snape to take it, or was it supposed to be buried with Dumbledore as it had been, with Snape only nominally its master?

- Did Snape know about any of this? Apparently enough to realise what was coming, in the end.

- Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would eventually go after the Elder Wand in order to be able defeat Harry. So even if Snape had been its master, this would have effectively signed his death warrant (since Voldemort isn't known to bother with 'expelliarmus' and in this of all cases would have taken extra care to be safe rather than sorry), unless Voldemort had been unable to find out the current location of the wand. Was Snape's death a calculated risk in Dumbledore's plan, another player sacrificed?

- Would Voldemort have been able to kill Harry (or at least the part of his own soul within Harry) with another wand - probably yes, since he hadn't truly been the master of the Elder Wand, either. But would he have been able to do that if Harry hadn't willingly sacrificed himself, but defended himself?

- How certain was Dumbledore that Harry would survive and go back to kill Voldemort? It cannot have been more than a guess, since even so he gives him the choice to return or go 'on'. There's an awful lot of variables in this plan...

- Was the plan for Harry to destroy all the horcruxes, including Nagini, then sacrifice himself, or in any case be killed, and for Snape to kill Voldemort with the Elder Wand, presuming that Voldemort hadn't been able to locate it first? I'd thought for a while that maybe it'd be Snape's task to kill Nagini (and I wonder, if he, like Harry under his cover, is still trying to figure out a way to do that when he sees his death coming), since he was the only one close enough to Voldemort to be in a position to do it, but apparently he didn't even know about the horcruxes. Or at least hadn't been told, as far as we can gather from his memories. Could he have figured it out regardless? Would Dumbledore have told him at the appropriate time via portrait?

Am I missing something here?

Another thing about Snape's death and the complaints that it was meaningless and not heroic enough - as others have pointed out, it wasn't senseless, since it let Voldemort believe that he was now the master of the Elder Wand, but IMO it's brave, even heroic because it's so random. He kept his cover, he did his best, he remained true to the decision he'd made until the bitter end, and the realisation that there'd be no revenge, no heroic death (and while Snape certainly is pragmatic, even he must have had moments where he imagined what he'd throw in Voldemort's face before he'd kill him) for him, maybe not even public rehabilitation (he probably didn't trust Harry one bit with that), must have been bitter. He dies not even knowing whether he's achieved anything at all. Nothing but a glimpse of Lily's eyes in a face he hated.


( 4 comments — Leave a comment )
Jul. 29th, 2007 05:54 am (UTC)
Excellent considerations, especially the final one about Snape's tragic death. I think that Dumbledore had more than one possible conclusion in mind. The "flash of triumph" in his eyes as Harry is telling him that Voldemort used his blood to be reborn shows that he was fairly certain that Lily's spell was now transfered to Voldemort himself, so that Voldemort's own being alive would keep Harry alive - while Voldemort had no such protection: the one thing he would certainly kill if he tried to kill Harry would be his own Horcrux. But as you point out, there was a second line of defence: if Harry died anyway, and Dumbledore was wrong about Voldemort himself being his defence (or if, for that matter, Narcissa failed to lie to Voldemort - a circumstance not even Dumbledore could have foreseen), then Snape could usurp the Elder Wand and take care of business. it is even possible that Neville amounted to a third possible line of defence, taking his role if both Harry and Snape fell. And if the worst came to the worst, at least all of Voldemort's Horcruxes would have been destroyed, leaving him vulnerable to any angry and vindictive wizard or witch. His sixfold defence against death, that made him an altogether unique danger - since once he won, there would never be a prospect of his ever losing control - would have been removed.

I say, how do you feel about a collaboration along these lines?
Jul. 30th, 2007 06:50 pm (UTC)
The "flash of triumph" in his eyes as Harry is telling him that Voldemort used his blood to be reborn

I hadn't remembered this; I've begun to reread the whole series, but I've only just started with CoS. I think I'd better stop theorising until I've finished...

But Dumbledore must have realised he wouldn't have had complete control over events, especially once he was dead, so what you're saying makes sense, getting as many people as possible ready to do their best and hope that in some combination they'd succeed.
Aug. 5th, 2007 02:58 am (UTC)
I think what you are missing is the fact that this isn't about Dumbledore's plans. He did not mastermind Voldemort's downfall, as expecting him to have answers to those questions seems to suggest. He was merely feeling his way along, just like Harry. Granted, he knew more than Harry did, but he was ultimately just a pawn in the prophecy, too. He knew the prophecy and had his ideas about what he would like to see happen and how best to make those things happen, but he didn't know what was really going to happen next any more than the next person did. So, yes, there were holes in the plan. If there were no holes, it would mean he was the real hero...except that he would have sent a child to do his work, rather than doing it himself, which would not be all that heroic, would it?
Aug. 11th, 2007 08:44 pm (UTC)
If Harry hadn't sacrificed himself would he have died or would the blood protection keep him alive anyway? If Harry was "killed" in combat like in the graveyard in Book 4 would he have really died despite the blood?
( 4 comments — Leave a comment )


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